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So today I have something I wanted to look at. A Twitter friend is a strong anti-abortionist. She was more or less scolded by a gentleman (whose handle claimed the title of pastor, one of many things that will be neither here nor there as I set up the story), who made some good points, insofar as we as Christians aren't going to change minds with protest signs in front of clinics. I believe that to be true; if you do too, there are places like Pre-Born who fund ultrasound machines and local pregnancy counselling establishments you can donate to. And I don't know the extent of what this electronic acquaintance of mine goes to; perhaps this other gentleman does. But here, let me show you where I actually question his reasoning.
Our focus should be on what we were commanded to do. The great commission tells us to spread the Gospel. Paul is the best example of how we should act and respond as Christians tell me when did Paul EVER PROTEST ROME.
Whether he intended it or not, he has turned the debate into in what way and to what extent, if any, as Christians we are to stand up against the government when it has flawed policies. I have an answer to his un-question-marked question, but let me get there by degrees.
What are we commanded to do about government policy or figures in that government? I have to call the pastor on a technicality: JESUS is the best example. So what did He do?
Well, what about when he was told that John the Baptist had been imprisoned for calling out the immorality of Herod marrying his brother's wife? First of all, consider that right after hearing this news was when he declared His cousin "The greatest man born of woman". As such, John took an active stand against sin in high government; Jesus confirmed him in his judgment, even if He Himself didn't confront Herod. Or did he? In Luke 13, the following conversation took place:
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”
32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’
Hardly a compliment, is it? Was it likely to get to Herod's ear? Um, well, if you could've found a Pharisee who could stand the sight of Herod. The Pharisees were the de facto religious rulers; this was their words, not Herod's, and by His wording Jesus defied them both.
What about the TWO times he chased salesmen from the Temple grounds? How was it that these men had been allowed to set up shop on holy ground? Because that same religious government was allowing it- because they were getting a juicy cut FROM it. Did He rely on a protest sign? No, He relied on a WHIP.
Tradition tells us Timothy died protesting a government sponsored parade of immorality. In fact, which Apostle or Disciple was martyred for something that WASN'T at some level a protest against a government?
"When did Paul ever protest Rome?" He was protesting Rome from the moment he said, "I appeal to Caesar!" By his coming there, he was relying on a law higher than Rome; while in prison he preached a Gospel that would rip out everything that WAS Rome; He never once stopped proclaiming a King higher than Caesar.
"Pastor", now it is your turn to do as you have been commanded. You lead a flock, presumably; you have to lead in general terms, unless you have a specific specialty (like worship, healing, visiting, etc). Those who aren't called to the ministry have ministries all their own; and many of them, since they are not leading a flock, are far more specific than yours. And it's just possible my Twitter buddy has a "turning over of tables" ministry. It may be that you thought you were telling James and John, "You do not know what type of spirit you are supposed to be." And you may be right... or you might be telling Elijah, "Instead of challenging these priests of Baal, why don't you just pray for them?" If you feel this strongly about it, get to know the person, and find out a bit more. One of you may NEED to know what you learn.
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I am the person that you posted this to and I am happy to give an answer to the things that you have asked. First of all I want to clarify that I do not condone or think abortion is moral or something that the church should accept.
ReplyDeleteI want to begin by addressing a couple of errors in your post. You said that after Jesus heard of Johns imprisonment that Jesus said that John was " The greatest man born of woman" This is incorrect this statement happened in Luke 7 when John sent his disciples to inquire of Jesus if he was the one to be sent or if there was another to come. Jesus performs miracles and tells them to report to John what they have seen after the messengers left Jesus tells those gathered who John was that was a prophet sent to prepare the way for him. Nothing to do with Johns capture or execution.
Yes, but John WAS in prison. To compliment him while he was in prison proves that Christ approved his actions, dont you think?
DeleteNext in Luke 13 the account Johns arrest. The reason I used the example of Paul and not Christ or John is number one John and Jesus were working within a THEOCRATIC type governance meaning that religion was the basis of the governance and the priest held political power. To stand up for the law would be to stand in opposition of the leaders of the Sanhedrim which was religious and political. So John standing up to Harod is not the same thing as Christians protesting secular government. Just as Jesus flipping the tables in the Temple which were in direct violation of the religious law is not the same thing. This is why I used Paul as the example. Paul proclaimed the Gospel while SUBMITTING to the secular governance of Rome and faced his execution without protest.
ReplyDeleteAlso if you continue to read Luke 13 what did Jesus do he did not stay to face Harod he left and continued to minister to hearts and bodies which is exactly what I said to do follow what we are commanded to do in the Great Commission.
See, here we begin to see what I was afraid you'd do despite my careful wording- you are more interested in critiquing the examples than to actually reading my point to you...
DeleteTradition of the death of Timothy is a Catholic tradition truth is the acts of Timothy were written over 300 years after Timothy's death so we truly dont know how he died so to mention this is really a red herring.
ReplyDeleteThe message I am bringing is what I am commanded this is the burden God has put on my heart. They Body has grown sick we have pulled within the four walls of our churches both psychically and figuratively. We have lost sight we are to show the love of Christ to the world and we also have to understand that without repentance there is no chance for salvation. The problem we have been taught wrongly what repentance actually is. It is not a work that a person performs to become saved it is the WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT the Holy Spirit pricks the soul of the person inspiring repentance and a change of mind and heart towards those called by Christ. We as Christians should not quench the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is shy and when our actions produce wrath ("Table Flipping Ministry") we limit the Holy Spirit in his work. We are becoming the stumbling block because we think we know best and in our pride we prevent the Holy Spirit from convicting of sin.
We as Christians hold the Balm of Gilead in our hands. We have the answer to the hurt, pain, and shame that each and every one of these women feel. We have the ONLY THING that heal them and bring them peace. Something changes in a woman at the spark of conception and they have just killed their child which is horribly evil and vile but it is also something that poisons their soul. Jesus still loves them and wants to offer freedom from their sin, guilt, and shame. Then they walk into or out of that clinic only to be met with a self righteous Christian waving a sign telling them they are going to hell quenching the Spirit in the process. Our actions give the enemy a hand hold in that persons soul and our actions inspire bitterness and resentment NOT repentance.
So again I will state instead of waiving signs volunteer and love them and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work in their hearts because the reality is he is better than us at knowing the persons heart and he knows how to reach them. We just need to stop standing in his way.
So here I will respond to you in a point by point manner, as that is what you seem to understand.
Delete1-I did put Timothy out there as tradition. I don't feel it is a red herring as it shows the character of the martyrs who died standing up for Christ.
2- The next paragraph I'm with you through "work of the Holy Spirit". No argument at all.
3-"The Holy Spirit is shy..." This I do not go along with. Was the Spirit shy when Peter preached at Pentecost? Was the Spirit shy when Stephen preached to the Jews? Perhaps shy wasn't the word you were looking for, I don't know.
4- There is a BIG difference between acting out of pride and being led by the Spirit. You seem to think a "table flipping ministry" is only able to happen in the first. We'll have to agree to disagree there.
5- Second to last paragraph, I completely agree. IF a person was to go to a clinic to protest, my thought would be to carry a sign that says, "There's a better way, talk to me"- and then have someone HOLDING that sign that could handle that talk. And if you read my post, I mentioned that I DID NOT know the extent of her protesting, or the extent of YOUR KNOWLEDGE of her actions. That is why I said ad the VERY BEGINNING that there were going to be alot of things "neither here nor there."
6- I also stated near the very beginning that my only point in this post was to address the way you made it sound like a Christian should NEVER protest or defy the government- which we will have to agree to disagree- and that Paul by the very nature of his work was protesting Rome, which apparently we will also have to agree to disagree.
7- And if you would look at the close, my only suggestion was that you BOTH might want to consider the other person. And perhaps you should consider this: Yes, the best way to reach the hearts of these people is through love- hence I suggested at the beginning that a better way to handle these things is to give to outfits like Pre-Born et al, who are equipped to do the most good in that area. But sometimes, you have to kick over a table to get anyone to even pay attention. Just like I had to get past your hurt feelings that I questioned you to get you back to the point, which I hope I did.
By the way I would have gotten to know the person however she sent me this then immediately blocked me.
ReplyDelete"Wow. Well, Cole, if you can lay your head on your pillow each night knowing that you never said a word against the murder of innocent unborn babies, then I have nothing to say.
By the way, Jesus always spoke up for the weak. Always."
I was not able to give a response or give my explanation for what I was saying. It also restricted my ability to continue to follow the conversation because it was her thread. That is why I blocked her I was not going to allow my comments to be twisted which it seems they were anyway.
This is dishonest and not something that someone that proclaims to be working on behalf of God would do. Her pride would not allow her to take a conversation with a brother in Christ instead you are now posting a blog concerning what she thought I was saying after accusing me of not caring.... Now I am responding to you instead of being able to have an open discussion with someone that is supposed to be a sister.
This is a pride and spiritual issue not an issue of who is right or wrong about the topic of abortion. I noticed a haughty and condemning spirit that COULD turn the lost away from the Gospel not to it. When the churches in Galatia started down the road of accepting a false gospel, Paul quickly and decisively spoke against them, “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel” What was the different Gospel that Paul is speaking of in Gal 1:6 We know from the rest of the Epistle he is referring to the return to the requirements of the law therefore making it about works not grace through faith. Again a pride problem.
Number one, SIR, I was not defending either of you. Once again, if you would stop acting like her and actually READ what I said, my problem wasn't with your abortion fight, it was with the way YOUR WORDS made it sound like a Christian NEVER has a right to protest. That wasn't her twisting or me twisting, that was YOU being so butt-hurt by the block that you never bothered to really read what I was saying to you.
DeleteI think you have hit at least one thing correctly- your responses to ME were a pride issue. Everything else I have already responded to, and if you read what I said and not what your anger sees, you'll see we really only had two differences- whether Christians are allowed to protest, and whether you could cool down enough to have that "conversation between brothers."
As for her, she's a big girl.
Elijah gave the priests opportunities, chances to obey God. He was doing God's will, defeating the followers of Baal.
ReplyDeletePraying for the women who seek abortions, they are the ones who need prayer.Those are the ones who are in desperate straits.
Paul demonstrated whom God made him to be. He preached to those in despair. He defied Rome, but didn't hate Rome. He hated the sin promoted by Rome.
Abortion, sigh. How many unborn babies have been slaughtered? Anti-abortion protest is a ministry for those whose hearts are broken at this thought.
Many of those women are at a point of desperation. They need counseling and prayer. The performers of the abortions? Like Elijah, like John, they need to see the power of God in their own lives, to be stopped by His words and love.
This is wordier than I am ever in my writing. But I admire and appreciate what you write.
Well, I don't know as he gave a chance to the priests as much as to the people...
DeleteAnd I agree with the praying, although Pastor 6 prolly doesn't think so. I love your description of the ministry as "for those whose hearts are broken", because that's what every ministry should be about.
Damn bloody good post
ReplyDeleteDid stir the pot, eh?
Delete