Sunday message: to babylon, or not to babylon

This week, David Jeremiah was in the midst of an end times series.  And one of those days, he spoke at length about how before the Tribulation, Babylon needs to be rebuilt.  A real, physical Babylon, such as was attempted (and to no great surprise, abandoned) by Saddam Hussein.  I have never believed that.  Forged in the Hal Lindsey school, I know that Revelation calls for TWO Babylons to fall:

Rev 14:8  Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality." 


Fallen, fallen.  And the first Babylon referenced is the "religious" system symbolized by the Great Harlot sitting on 7 hills...

Rev 17:9  This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 

Which is of course more than likely saying that that system is going to be based on the corpse of the Roman church.  But the other is the Great City, whose demise is described in Revelation 18, and Dr Jeremiah sees to be a physical Babylon.  In a moment, I'll tell why I don't believe that... however, I have to say that there are reasons where you might get that.

Zec 5:5  Then the angel who talked with me came forward and said to me, "Lift your eyes and see what this is that is going out." 

Zec 5:6  And I said, "What is it?" He said, "This is the basket that is going out." And he said, "This is their iniquity in all the land." 

Zec 5:7  And behold, the leaden cover was lifted, and there was a woman sitting in the basket! 

Zec 5:8  And he said, "This is Wickedness." And he thrust her back into the basket, and thrust down the leaden weight on its opening. 

Zec 5:9  Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, two women coming forward! The wind was in their wings. They had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. 

Zec 5:10  Then I said to the angel who talked with me, "Where are they taking the basket?" 

Zec 5:11  He said to me, "To the land of Shinar, to build a house for it. And when this is prepared, they will set the basket down there on its base." 

There are other examples, including one where Jeremiah relates:

Jer 51:26  No stone shall be taken from you for a corner and no stone for a foundation, but you shall be a perpetual waste, declares the LORD. 

And yet, Wiki says...

Babylon is mentioned in medieval Arabic writings as a source of bricks,[19] said to have been used in cities from Baghdad to Basra.

Noting, of course, that "Medieval Arab writings" aren't as accurate as they might seem.  But several of their reasonings are just not right (and this is not saying that Dr Jeremiah went extra-Biblical to form his theories); for example, one "expert" uses the answer, "We haven't seen Babylon used as other than a Physical place anywhere else... why would we now?"

Sorry, next caller.  Even without going to the story in question, I can disprove that...

1Pe 5:12  By Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him, I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it. 

1Pe 5:13  She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son. 

1Pe 5:14  Greet one another with the kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

And many scholars believe this is a reference to the Church in Rome.  But more damning is that Ezekiel 27 is an almost exact replay of Revelation 18 except for one thing- Ezekiel calls the city Tyre, not Babylon.  Both passages refer to future judgment on a "city" who is known for its luxury, and its seaborne trade:

 Rev 18:9  And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning. 

Rev 18:10  They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come." 

Rev 18:11  And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, 

Rev 18:12  cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, 

Rev 18:13  cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls. 

Eze 27:24  In your market these traded with you in choice garments, in clothes of blue and embroidered work, and in carpets of colored material, bound with cords and made secure. 

Eze 27:25  The ships of Tarshish traveled for you with your merchandise. So you were filled and heavily laden in the heart of the seas. 

Eze 27:26  "Your rowers have brought you out into the high seas. The east wind has wrecked you in the heart of the seas. 

Eze 27:27  Your riches, your wares, your merchandise, your mariners and your pilots, your caulkers, your dealers in merchandise, and all your men of war who are in you, with all your crew that is in your midst, sink into the heart of the seas on the day of your fall. 

Eze 27:28  At the sound of the cry of your pilots the countryside shakes, 

Eze 27:29  and down from their ships come all who handle the oar. The mariners and all the pilots of the sea stand on the land 

Eze 27:30  and shout aloud over you and cry out bitterly. They cast dust on their heads and wallow in ashes; 

Eze 27:31  they make themselves bald for you and put sackcloth on their waist, and they weep over you in bitterness of soul, with bitter mourning. 

Read the full passages, and tell me these are not referring to the same event.  Then re-read the descriptions- how the emphasis was not only put on the cargo by seas, but also on the location amidst the seas-

Eze 27:2  "Now you, son of man, raise a lamentation over Tyre, 

Eze 27:3  and say to Tyre, who dwells at the entrances to the sea, merchant of the peoples to many coastlands, thus says the Lord GOD: "O Tyre, you have said, 'I am perfect in beauty.' 

Eze 27:4  Your borders are in the heart of the seas; your builders made perfect your beauty. 

Rev 18:21  Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more; 

Now, tell me, from John and Ezekiel's perspective, what nation would be in the midst of the seas, with so much luxury, so much trade.  Who has that now?

Uh-huh.  

Another point I would like to make is that, yes, with God nothing IS impossible.  And he could certainly make a New Babylon spring up overnight, as Dr Jeremiah and others suggest.  It would be a miraculous thing, such as the rebuilding of Israel, and would certainly fit the desire of Satan to counterfeit everything God does.  And he could certainly open it up to all that luxury, all that fame, in a very short time.  But being miraculous, you'd think it would be among the descriptions of the Antichrist's deeds in the Bible, and that I don't see.  And once you link Ezekiel and John's stories, and realize it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be Babylon- or Rome- you know we have a much more logical candidate right here in the United States- especially given that it would be the USA in a world where the Church has been raptured, and nothing remains to hold the secularists from all their preferred debaucheries of today.

Final point:  Some of those who debate for New Babylon point out the problematic nature of constructing a city like this in the heart of Islam, and explain that away by saying that the "Gog War" (Ezekiel 38-39) would come BEFORE its founding... but that would contract the timeline even more.  The sudden "fleshing up of the dry bones" to remake Israel was at least a forty year process, and you want to build a New Babylon, make it rich beyond belief, all in a couple of years as every curse in Revelation pours down on the earth?

Final, final point:  We might be nowhere close to the end times by our perspective.  Everything could change between now and then.  Hildebrand saw the signs of the end times back in 1000 AD.